Curse

Zuranthium · Oct 18, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

I didn't say that a skill line should specialize in one specific thing (damage aside)? We basically agree but I think you misunderstood.

Chilling Winds doesn't look very promising in it's current form, imo. It needs to be 5e and semi-spammable or stick with the current numbers and hit an area instead of just one target.

Kha · Oct 18, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

As a general comment: There does seem to be some nice stuff for elementalists coming in Nightfall. We may find that the Ele is less obviously in need of buffing when the other stuff comes in.

Which would make it a requirement to buy future chapters just so an elementalist can be at the same level as the other professions. This wasn't what Guild Wars was supposed to be about. Sure there will be certain skills from specific chapters that will always be considered awesome unless ever nerfed (Spiteful Spirit from Prophecies for necromancers as an example), but the fact is elementalists have a lot more skills that just aren't even considered in builds compared to other professions.

Their attributes are too specific in what they do, and they need a better bit of diversity to make them both PvE and PvP friendly. I still use my elementalist a lot, and though she is quite powerful, it's annoying that I have to use dual attunement to even try to match my Necromancer in power. Someone pointed out in this thread or another that multiple elementalists provide a great amount of damage, especially compared to multiple SS necros that can't be effective because you can't multi-hex something. While this is true, a profession shouldn't have to rely on more of its kind in a group to be effective.

I haven't really thought enough and focused enough on the faults of the skills so won't bother commenting on them individually, but the OP and many other posters have pointed out very clear problems and possibly solutions. I don't want elementalists to become these huge damage dealers that own everything. I love the balance of GW and I'm happy that there isn't one class that overpowers the others. I just would like the elementalist to be more diverse and creative to play instead of having to rely on a few specific skills and attributes to make it effective in PvE and then in PvP.

frojack · Oct 18, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

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Conjure "Element" Spell Line - It's only a 4 damage increase, I don't think that makes it abusable at all. Just playable. It would be most powerful on an Assassin but any less than 12 in Dagger or 13 in Crit Strikes hampers either their damage or their energy management, making it an equal tradeoff if they want to pump a ton of points into an elemental line.

Fair enough. I was unclear what you mean't by '5 + rank in attribute'

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Defensive Enchantments - A shorter duration but an even quicker recharge could work too. You'd definitely wanna keep Swirling at 75% though. Whatever the change I think they should be able to be up for at least half the time...so Sliver does need a bit of an increase (my suggestion might have been slightly too much but at the same time I don't even think so because it's a more specific skill and many builds would continue running Armor of Earth anyway).

The reason I say keep it at 50% is quite simply because of balance. If a ranger is spec'ed out to interrupt casters, he should be able to do just that with a fair amount of success (unless the caster goes out of their way to use the better evasion methods of other classes). There's a reason skills like Guardian or Aegis max out at around 50%. No one ever said those skills needed buffs.
I hate being interrupted personally, but I accept that this is the scissor-paper-stone relationship at work. Just because it's broken elsewhere, doesn't mean we should further damage it. The same goes' for Sliver. In short it's a great skill. One of the few skills in the Elemental line that just feels 'right'. While other classes have a general base value of 75% for evasion/blocking, that is their specialty. They 'should' have better options in this regard. Just as no defence buffs can really equal that of the elemental line. Especially with the coming skills in Nightfall. No other class can achieve more armour, only one other class can become completely invulnerable to spells. If Stoneflesh Aura stays as it is, no other class can match the raw damage reduction either (I'm not however, arguing the validity of Obsidian Flesh, just acknowledging it). It rubs both ways.

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Mark of Rodgort - It's not constant -7 degen...the degen is conditional. If the spell flat out said "cause burning on target and all adjacent foes for 30+ seconds and reapply this burning every 3 seconds", hell yes, that would be overpowered.

Sorry, but your assertion that your suggested change isn't over-powered is just false. What you propose is an AOE version of Mark of Rodgort. -7 degen is just ridiculously good. Maintaining the condition with a fire spec'ed elementalist is a breeze (screw other classes for a second). If this didn't cause scatter, elementalists would have a non-elite, (albeit slightly weaker) version of Spiteful Spirit, in terms of damage. How does that not deserve to be an elite?
With a 5 second recharge, you could keep entirely separate groups burning constantly (PvP or PvE). Energy cost is not an argument. Not in the face of the damage you get in return. With SS all you need to do is stop acting to mitigate it's damage. Failing that, hex removal. MoR requires both condition removal and hex removal for instant relief. To do nothing is to die.

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Lightning Orb - It does 21 more damage than Fireball for 50% more energy. For a 15cc spell I think it needs a little something extra. It only sees so much play on Elem runner bars because there simply isn't anything better. If there was a spell that was an exact copy of Fireball in the Air line, I'm pretty sure that spell would always be used instead

Your missing the bigger picture... Fire only has 1 ranged spell with comparably high damage, that can follow Fireball in succession with a 1 second cast, and also has comparably short recharge. That skill is an elite. 2 more are coming with Nightfall, but they also happen to be elite. Air has a plethora of spells with similarly high damage and low recharge time.

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Shockwave - I wanted to cap the spell at 60 so that Spirit Bond doesn't make it worthless. Telporting E/A's could do great Aftershock + Shockwave spikes if PBAOE's weren't gimped.

Again, irrelevant point. Spirit Bond makes lot's of damage elites pointless. Why should Shockwave be any different? All in all, that's a weak argument to cap the damage...

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Churning Earth, Unsteady Ground, Searing Heat, etc. - They would be overpowered at a 1 second cast time if you still want to keep the low recharge. Breath of Fire is fine at a 1 second cast because the AOE is only adjacent.

Why would these be any more over-powered at 1 second than at 2? AOE spells are generally rubbish. Only a few have any real use. Meteor Shower is knockdown I guess (still think it's junk, but that's just me), and Maelstrom has it uses. Especially as snares are in the same cereal box. Unsteady Ground is ok, until you see the recharge, and note that you only achieve around 2 knockdowns for the earth-shattering 5 seconds it operates for. Any class that is brave enough to hit you in the face with melee will most probably have the armour to not even know their being 'attacked' by some crummy AOE.
All you need to do is simply move out of the AOE. All of a sudden you have mitigated the damage. Why should I have to wait 2 seconds and spend a lot of energy, for something that may not even hit for higher than 37 damage?

For whoever said this, Mind Shock/Burn, should never, ever not have exhaustion linked to them. They are far too powerful. If you think Hammer warriors are good at knockdown, unlocking Mind Shock would make them look tame. Mind Burn similarly shouldn't be spammable without consequence. Exhaustion is such an interesting mechanic. It's something that just hasn't been explored properly.

xcutioner · Oct 18, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

80% of these skills never see play in serious PvP.

I think ANET is coming around to buffing the skills, instead of just blanket nerfing the sotm. They have got to be able to see that certain skills are just not getting played and that they need some changes to make them more viable. This will in turn lead to more builds and more interesting games.

Symbol · Oct 19, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

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Sorry, but your assertion that your suggested change isn't over-powered is just false. What you propose is an AOE version of Mark of Rodgort. -7 degen is just ridiculously good. Maintaining the condition with a fire spec'ed elementalist is a breeze (screw other classes for a second). If this didn't cause scatter, elementalists would have a non-elite, (albeit slightly weaker) version of Spiteful Spirit, in terms of damage. How does that not deserve to be an elite?

Because spiteful does far more damage than MoR, and adjacent range AoE is pathetic outside of PvE clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs. I'd much rather have MoR be 15E, 1/4sec cast than the proposted suggestion though.

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With a 5 second recharge, you could keep entirely separate groups burning constantly (PvP or PvE). Energy cost is not an argument. Not in the face of the damage you get in return. With SS all you need to do is stop acting to mitigate it's damage. Failing that, hex removal. MoR requires both condition removal and hex removal for instant relief. To do nothing is to die.

What are you talking about? You don't need condition removal for a 4 sec burn. Hex removal is more then enough consider MoR's 25E cost and the fact that the elementalist has no cheap, spammable cover hexes available.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 19, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Depicting Aftershocks maximum damage value which requires knockdown is totaly bias. Knockdown is a very difficult effect to produce, especially on a group, the skill should hit a wider radius as it is.

Exagerated recast is the general theme of all poweful skills in the game. High energy and recast times are 2 costs, and if you add exhaustion, that is actually 3 costs, with that much cost, it is just riduculous to justify the truely mediocre damage output these spells do. And if you really want to get technical, High Casting Times are another cost, allowing easier interruption, and slowing the delivery of the spell as well. In all honesty, if skill A has twice as much energy cost, twice as much recast, twice as much casting time, and perhaps even exhaustion than skill B, than skill A should be at least 4 times more powerful. And on a related note, the damage done by AoE attacks is partially credited to the ability and situations required to hit several targets, and cost just as much in control as it does in energy, you can't debit energy for the amount of possible damage an AoE spell can do when half the work is placing it on more than one target. When you consider all factors, your typically paying 4 to 5 times more for effective elementist skills than simple ones, or skills from other classes. The skills deal less damage, and take a reduction against armor which is often from base to half damage, and cost more than equivalents in other classes which ignore armor, and sometimes even steal health, at simular recasts and higher actual damage figures.

66% more energy and 200% more recast time makes Lightning Hammer a Joke. It doesn't do enough damage regularly to merit anything, even with a frequent recast, it doesn't hit often enough to be worth 25 energy. The only way you could justify that cost is if Lightning Hammer could be cast as often as Lightning Orb, or at least close (7 seconds) That way the only real prohibition against spamming Lightning Hammer would be cost.

The balance is really ridiculous, using 50%-100% more energy for the same damage and twice as much recast on elementist skills compared to other classes is ridiculous. Elementist uses Obsidian Flame to deal high ignore armor damage, and pays 5 energy and 10 points in Exhaustion. For those of you who don't understand exhaustion, it recharges 4 times slower than normal energy, or basicly 1 point of energy regeneration, that is basicly 4 times the cost in max energy. Yet Necromancer can use Blood and Shadow Damage spells for nearly the same damage, and exceptionally cheaper cost, wile getting not only ignoring armor damage, but life return on many of their blood skills, offering basicly 60% of the same damage and 60% of the damage in healing, for less cost. Can you do the simple math there? Elementist pay more for less.

Improving the Radius of self targeting AoE skills and releasing the target options of all location+ spells would be an outstanding improvment to Elementist. But the overall cost and value of the skill slot itself, and the casting time and recharge of a skill are very significant oversights in Elementist, and even some other classes. Twice the recast is worse than Twice the Cost, yet spells regularly cost 4 times more for the same or slightly better effects, it is a serious disability.

lishi · Oct 19, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

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Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Depicting Aftershocks maximum damage value which requires knockdown is totaly bias. Knockdown is a very difficult effect to produce, especially on a group, the skill should hit a wider radius as it is.

Exagerated recast is the general theme of all poweful skills in the game. High energy and recast times are 2 costs, and if you add exhaustion, that is actually 3 costs, with that much cost, it is just riduculous to justify the truely mediocre damage output these spells do. And if you really want to get technical, High Casting Times are another cost, allowing easier interruption, and slowing the delivery of the spell as well. In all honesty, if skill A has twice as much energy cost, twice as much recast, twice as much casting time, and perhaps even exhaustion than skill B, than skill A should be at least 4 times more powerful. And on a related note, the damage done by AoE attacks is partially credited to the ability and situations required to hit several targets, and cost just as much in control as it does in energy, you can't debit energy for the amount of possible damage an AoE spell can do when half the work is placing it on more than one target. When you consider all factors, your typically paying 4 to 5 times more for effective elementist skills than simple ones, or skills from other classes. The skills deal less damage, and take a reduction against armor which is often from base to half damage, and cost more than equivalents in other classes which ignore armor, and sometimes even steal health, at simular recasts and higher actual damage figures.

66% more energy and 200% more recast time makes Lightning Hammer a Joke. It doesn't do enough damage regularly to merit anything, even with a frequent recast, it doesn't hit often enough to be worth 25 energy. The only way you could justify that cost is if Lightning Hammer could be cast as often as Lightning Orb, or at least close (7 seconds) That way the only real prohibition against spamming Lightning Hammer would be cost.

The balance is really ridiculous, using 50%-100% more energy for the same damage and twice as much recast on elementist skills compared to other classes is ridiculous. Elementist uses Obsidian Flame to deal high ignore armor damage, and pays 5 energy and 10 points in Exhaustion. For those of you who don't understand exhaustion, it recharges 4 times slower than normal energy, or basicly 1 point of energy regeneration, that is basicly 4 times the cost in max energy. Yet Necromancer can use Blood and Shadow Damage spells for nearly the same damage, and exceptionally cheaper cost, wile getting not only ignoring armor damage, but life return on many of their blood skills, offering basicly 60% of the same damage and 60% of the damage in healing, for less cost. Can you do the simple math there? Elementist pay more for less.

Improving the Radius of self targeting AoE skills and releasing the target options of all location+ spells would be an outstanding improvment to Elementist. But the overall cost and value of the skill slot itself, and the casting time and recharge of a skill are very significant oversights in Elementist, and even some other classes. Twice the recast is worse than Twice the Cost, yet spells regularly cost 4 times more for the same or slightly better effects, it is a serious disability.

Elementalist have many way to knock down a target.
gale , shock , the infamous earthquake aftershock combo etc etc.

even by itself its pretty decent , fast cast , decent damage , 10 energy , decent recharge.

about the ele - necro thing.

you if i give you lets say a skillbar for a elementalist (lets say the the old eq/af warder for HA) and with a necro you manage to do the same thing better , then you can say unfair , but comparing sigle skill without considering the entire line its poitless.

Phoenix Arrows · Oct 19, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

What I agree on:

Glimmering Mark, Lightning Orb, Ride The Lightning, Shock Arrow, Ash Blast, Magnetic Aura, Ward Against Elements, Lava Arrows, Smoldering Embers, Frozen Burst, Swirling Aura, Ward Against Harm.

The rest would become too overpowered, with an example as Rodgort's Invocation.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 19, 2006, 04:01 AM // 04:01

It isn't enough to just knock them down, first of all, you have to be adjacent to them, and second of all, knockdown typically last for one second, so you have to activate aftershock quickly.

As a seasoned elementist, I know only jokers try to make it with earthquake, it takes an additional skill to decrease the casting time in order to activate it fast enough to knock them down before they run away. Almost all other knockdowns only work on one enemy which means the added damage only works on one. Basicly the only good setup for a group aftershock is Whirlwind or Tenais Wind, which will knockdown all adjacent foes if they are attacking, and than you can hit all of those with aftershock. Furthermore, pumping skills in more than 2 attributes for elementist usually means alot of lost power, it means less damage for the amount of energy spent, and often less energy on account of less points in Energy Storage, and less energy manamgent due to weaker attributes as well.

Final difficulty, even though most defensive skills are in the Earth Attribute, Elementist is a fragile class, and moving in for point blank attacks is dangerous, Even if your using the usual Armor of Earth to brunt attacks, if your victim to enchantment stripping than you basicly get owned, end of story. There are alot of mix matched skills you can use from different attributes to meet the effects for powerful combos, but they are rarely powerful enough to compensate for the cost and reduction of power caused by spreading your attributes.

Returning to my point, Pretty much all self targeting AoE skills for Elementist should at least hit the Area around him, if not nearby, Adjacent is simply not good enough. Aftershock should deal damage in an area, and added damage to nearby knocked down enemies. Lava Font should hit enemies in an Area, and last at least 5 seconds so you can finish recasting it before it ends. And many others. Elementist is simply not ment to be shoulder to shoulder with anything, and if they have any adjacent damage spells, they should have some exagerated damage, and by that I mean about double what they currently are, he is certainly going to receive that much damage if he gets hit with melee attacks.

Flopjack · Oct 19, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

I agree some... or many Ele spells need buffing, more like tweaked. But are you guys really overlooking all the TRIPLE DIGIT NUMBERS IN DAMAGE this badly!?!? In this thread, it's been said ele need to be more diverse, trying to compare them to a Necromancer or a Mesmer. Well, this may be a shock to you guys, but they just aren't Necromancers.

Yup, just soak that all in for a second.

Shadow of Fear is a good spell! Why doesn't an Ele have a similar spell? Because Curses specialize in weakening and withering away enemies to mush. Elementlists can't do that. They aren't supposed to do that! They blast crap away with the elements!

Do you realize the majority of Fire Spells each hit for well over 100 fire damage? I can easily squeeze out 100s of damage with Fire Magic in PvE, Fort Aspenwood and even HA. (People and NPCs stay in AOE all the time, ya just gotta lay down enough of it.) I have done it many times and all it takes is a little aiming and prediction. (Which is all the more reason AOE spells should be able to be cast on the ground. They enable you to place flags in Nightfall, AOE spells should be able to be cast the same way, you Shift+click the spell or something, then you get your Adjacent, Nearby or in the Area circle to place where you want it to slam.)

Elementalists aren't going to be some great hexer where they can disable people. They are Primarily damage!

Air - Spiking, Knockdowns easy blinding.
Water - Snares, hexes, armor boosts
Earth - Defensive, Wards and buffs, general damage and nuking, Paticually high damage under certain requirements.
Fire - Blam stuff away because your ticked off. Nuking, Nuking, burning, Nuking, everything dies... nuking.

I know people already know this, but I really think it needed to be layed out again. Some of the Earth spell buffs in this thread basically make the Spells like Fire nuking! Earth will never out damage or nuke as good as Fire, BECAUSE IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO!!!

Lightning Orb doesn't deal enough damage? 140ish damage isn't enough to a 60 armor target? What?! Air = armor pen! No better single person spiking out there! Lightning Surge > Orb > Strike = well over 300 damage in 4 seconds! Plus a knock down to maximize your spike!

After Shock covers everyone in your area? WHAT THE HECK? What is wrong with you people? Ok, let's make Deathly Swarm hit 59 targets too.

"I have energy problems..."

If you have energy problem with an Ele, when no one is targeting you, you are just stupid, or suck as using mana. But usually when it comes to Ele, it's both. I hardly EVER use dual attunemnts and don't run out of energy! A PvE build I use with Fire Magic consists of two 25 mana spells, one 15 mana, and three 10 mana spells. Mind you I am CONSTANTLY casting. There seriously isn't a time when I am not casting SOMEthing which ensures damage, (save for the few times I mess up my cast order and ALL of my spells are recharing.)

It just seems like people want Eles to deal 300 damage when they want, on who they want. With a side of Ice cream.

...ok I'm done. There are many things that were on my mind about this topic, but I lost them for now and I'm not even sure the things I said here came out in text correctly anyways... bah, I''ll be surprised if anyone even reads this post.

Symbol · Oct 19, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Pretty much everything you said about elementalist damage was wrong. Air single target spiking is mediocre, nuking sucks, and elementalist damage is bad in general.

Riotgear · Oct 19, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

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Originally Posted by Flopjack

Shadow of Fear is a good spell! Why doesn't an Ele have a similar spell? Because Curses specialize in weakening and withering away enemies to mush. Elementlists can't do that. They aren't supposed to do that! They blast crap away with the elements!

Water is a pretty far cry from "blasting crap away." If whammos can outheal your damage, it blows.

Speaking of whammos, the whole problem with water is that it was practically designed for running warriors around in circles, except it's all easily-mitigated elemental damage, which is more intuitively used against casters. Yet that not-particularly-useful combination seems to justify massive energy costs and recharge times among the entire line. More on why water needs improvement below.

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Do you realize the majority of Fire Spells each hit for well over 100 fire damage?

And when someone starts attacking you, you do what?

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I can easily squeeze out 100s of damage with Fire Magic in PvE, Fort Aspenwood and even HA. (People and NPCs stay in AOE all the time, ya just gotta lay down enough of it.)

In upper PvE, necros outdamage eles badly, courtesy of level 28 mobs mitigating everything. In Aspenwood, blood spike works significantly better, as do MMs. HA, it doesn't take much to park a ranger on a nuker to annihilate them.

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Elementalists aren't going to be some great hexer where they can disable people. They are Primarily damage!

Air - Spiking, Knockdowns easy blinding.

Ironically, this is exactly my point from earlier. There is one practical knockdown in Air: Gale. There is one blind: Blinding Flash. In a line that's almost exclusively spike, those two skills are the most useful. Soon, Blinding Surge is going to take that spot too. Unfortunately, it's going to do it on Me/E fast-cast spikers.

As for not being a great hexer, there's not much other justification for running the water line as a primary. Cripshot does roughly the same job with one skill slot. The difference is that cripshot can also pack energy denial, degen, and numerous interrupts, while water doesn't even have a decent cover hex to prevent its best spells from getting pwned by Blessed Light.

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Lightning Surge > Orb > Strike = well over 300 damage in 4 seconds! Plus a knock down to maximize your spike!

And if they have a monk, you give them a 3-second warning that it's time to push the Reversal of Fortune button, not to mention you've spent 35 energy executing it, which takes 26 seconds to recover. If you're using air attunement, congrats, now it only takes 18 seconds.

Pretty much everything you've said requires three things: First, no one is bothering to attack you or even try to interrupt you. Second, the confrontation is going to be over within 10 seconds and it'll be 30+ seconds to the next one. Third, your target is level 20 and has 60 armor. Any other situation, the cracks start to show.

fallot · Oct 19, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Mind Shock is too powerful it it causes knockdown everytime. The Mind spells already got a big reduction in recharge, I think they're fine now.

LightningHell · Oct 19, 2006, 07:28 AM // 07:28

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

Pretty much everything you've said requires three things: First, no one is bothering to attack you or even try to interrupt you. Second, the confrontation is going to be over within 10 seconds and it'll be 30+ seconds to the next one. Third, your target is level 20 and has 60 armor. Any other situation, the cracks start to show.

Also, he forgot aftercast.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

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Originally Posted by frojack

The reason I say keep it at 50% is quite simply because of balance. If a ranger is spec'ed out to interrupt casters, he should be able to do just that with a fair amount of success (unless the caster goes out of their way to use the better evasion methods of other classes). There's a reason skills like Guardian or Aegis max out at around 50%. I hate being interrupted personally, but I accept that this is the scissor-paper-stone relationship at work.

Swirling is only going to be up half the time (unless you get a 20% fast recharge) and only protects against projectiles. Even with the changes I proposed it's going to be a specific spell that won't see a huge amount of play. I don't think it's good logic to say "if a ranger is supposed to interrupt he should be able to do that almost always". I mean, cmon, you could just spam blind on the Ranger and it would work even better than Swirling.

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Originally Posted by frojack

Just because it's broken elsewhere, doesn't mean we should further damage it. The same goes' for Sliver. In short it's a great skill.

Eh? I don't think it can be called a great skill. For 11 (13) seconds you cause enemy warriors to get on a different target if they don't want to take lots of damage. Compared to Armor of Earth it's really pretty much useless right now for serious PvP.

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Originally Posted by frojack

Sorry, but your assertion that your suggested change isn't over-powered is just false. What you propose is an AOE version of Mark of Rodgort. -7 degen is just ridiculously good. Maintaining the condition with a fire spec'ed elementalist is a breeze (screw other classes for a second). If this didn't cause scatter, elementalists would have a non-elite, (albeit slightly weaker) version of Spiteful Spirit, in terms of damage. How does that not deserve to be an elite? With a 5 second recharge, you could keep entirely separate groups burning constantly (PvP or PvE). Energy cost is not an argument. Not in the face of the damage you get in return. With SS all you need to do is stop acting to mitigate it's damage. Failing that, hex removal. MoR requires both condition removal and hex removal for instant relief. To do nothing is to die.

Energy cost certainly is a factor; it's not a cheap spell. To keep separate groups burning constantly you would have to keep Mark up on both of them and continually switch between them with different damage spells. It's really not that easy and it's certainly not constant -7 degen. You can get interrupted, you can get energy denied...there's lots of things that limit the spell and make it less powerful than it might seem on paper. When everything lines up nicely it certainly is a lot of damage and that's what Fire Magic deserves to do. Damage, damage, damage. Aside from Burning Speed the entire line has absolutely no other functions.

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Originally Posted by frojack

Again, irrelevant point. Spirit Bond makes lot's of damage elites pointless. Why should Shockwave be any different? All in all, that's a weak argument to cap the damage...

I thought 60 was a perfect number anyway...that way it's still always going to do at least a bit more damage than Aftershock, which is what should be happening since this is an Elite spell. The fact that it just happens to say "HAHA" to Spirit Bond is incidental and pretty nice.

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Originally Posted by frojack

Why would these be any more over-powered at 1 second than at 2? AOE spells are generally rubbish. Only a few have any real use.

Okay, lol, but the goal here is to make them useful. 1 second is just a bit much I think. You could Gale + AOE spike for silly amounts of damage that gets around both Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond if they were 1 second casts.

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Originally Posted by frojack

For whoever said this, Mind Shock/Burn, should never, ever not have exhaustion linked to them. They are far too powerful. If you think Hammer warriors are good at knockdown, unlocking Mind Shock would make them look tame. Mind Burn similarly shouldn't be spammable without consequence. Exhaustion is such an interesting mechanic. It's something that just hasn't been explored properly.

Yes, I agree. But I definitely do think their secondary effects need to always happen. Your elite should be realiable - you have it on your bar because it does something necessary for your build. Mind Shock knocks down, Mind Burn sets people on fire, and Mind Freeze super-snares. Those effects should always be there when you use them . These spells are basically Elite versions of OBSIDIAN FLAME and yet that non-elite is a more reliable spell at the moment.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 08:33 AM // 08:33

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Originally Posted by fallot

Mind Shock is too powerful it it causes knockdown everytime. The Mind spells already got a big reduction in recharge, I think they're fine now.

Gale knocks people down every time and for 3 seconds. Recharges faster than Mind Shock as well.

For an ELITE that's exactly what Mind Shock should be doing.

frojack · Oct 19, 2006, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Symbol:

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Because spiteful does far more damage than MoR, and adjacent range AoE is pathetic outside of PvE clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs. I'd much rather have MoR be 15E, 1/4sec cast than the proposted suggestion though.

Last I checked SS is also adjacent. What's your point? Also, MoR is 25 energy for a reason; Anet seemingly want it to be the sole preserve of elementalists (well, in terms of not using everything you have on 1 spell), and that burning is just very cool.

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What are you talking about? You don't need condition removal for a 4 sec burn. Hex removal is more then enough consider MoR's 25E cost and the fact that the elementalist has no cheap, spammable cover hexes available.

You do if your under 50 hp. 'Instant relief' is what I wrote. 4 seconds of burning is around 50 damage. Remove just the hex and you still have to suffer upto around 50 damage.
Incidentally, if you want to cover MoR cheaply, a nice spell to use is Rust. While you have to contend with the 2 second cast-time, with just 4 or 5 (can't remember which) points in water it out-lasts it's recharge and gimps signets. Which is 15 seconds.

SS and MoR:

SS does no damage if the hex is removed.
MoR does no damage if the Hex is removed. However it can deal upto around 50 damage if the condition remains.

SS does zero damage if the hexed target doesn't act.
MoR will keep on burning, no matter what they do.

SS can out-damage MoR by far. This however is dependant upon human or artificial stupidity.

Zuranthium:

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Swirling is only going to be up half the time (unless you get a 20% fast recharge) and only protects against projectiles. Even with the changes I proposed it's going to be a specific spell that won't see a huge amount of play. I don't think it's good logic to say "if a ranger is supposed to interrupt he should be able to do that almost always". I mean, cmon, you could just spam blind on the Ranger and it would work even better than Swirling.

Your completely correct about just blinding them. I would in fact say Blurred Vision is a more desirable option for a hydromancer as hex removal is less common and attribute issues. Swirling at 50%, even with the proposed changes (yours or mine) pales in comparison to other block/evade options. It's a lot worse than the good warrior/ranger stances, and a little worse than monk block/evasion enchantments. Sounds about right to me.

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Eh? I don't think it can be called a great skill. For 11 (13) seconds you cause enemy warriors to get on a different target if they don't want to take lots of damage. Compared to Armor of Earth it's really pretty much useless right now for serious PvP.

Well it all comes down to context. It may not be a great blocking skill compared to skills outside the elemental line, but it certainly is compared to whats in it.

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Energy cost certainly is a factor; it's not a cheap spell. To keep separate groups burning constantly you would have to keep Mark up on both of them and continually switch between them with different damage spells. It's really not that easy and it's certainly not constant -7 degen. You can get interrupted, you can get energy denied...there's lots of things that limit the spell and make it less powerful than it might seem on paper. When everything lines up nicely it certainly is a lot of damage and that's what Fire Magic deserves to do. Damage, damage, damage. Aside from Burning Speed the entire line has absolutely no other functions.

That's true. It is costly. However the armour ignorant damage you get in return is certainly worth it. Compared to what else fire has to offer, this would be far better for 'nuking' at high AL levels and high-end pve, than the junk people use currently. In fact an Elite version of MoR is a great elite idea

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Spirit of Rodgort [E]. 15 energy. 3/4 cast. 5-10 second recharge.
Target Foe and all adjacent foes are hexed with Rodgort's Spirit for 5-15(at 16)seconds, and suffer burning for 1-4 seconds whenever struck by fire damage.

Maybe over-powered but I like it

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I thought 60 was a perfect number anyway...that way it's still always going to do at least a bit more damage than Aftershock, which is what should be happening since this is an Elite spell. The fact that it just happens to say "HAHA" to Spirit Bond is incidental and pretty nice.

Fair enough. Though Shockwave still has very limited use. Especially as an elite skill. Being 'up-front' as a caster (even an armour elementalist) is in most situations, suicidal.

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Okay, lol, but the goal here is to make them useful. 1 second is just a bit much I think. You could Gale + AOE spike for silly amounts of damage that gets around both Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond if they were 1 second casts.

Exactly

. With a 1 second cast, they may actually be a little usefull at hurting people. I don't think it would be over-powered at all. You might actually see some new, interesting builds, based around snares+aoes. There are so few currently usable at the moment, which is a real shame.

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Yes, I agree. But I definitely do think their secondary effects need to always happen. Your elite should be realiable - you have it on your bar because it does something necessary for your build. Mind Shock knocks down, Mind Burn sets people on fire, and Mind Freeze super-snares. Those effects should always be there when you use them . These spells are basically Elite versions of OBSIDIAN FLAME and yet that non-elite is a more reliable spell at the moment.

It certainly is debatable. However I still believe constant knockdown, -7 burning for 7 seconds is too much. Meeting the condition is only difficult against other elementalists. Everyone else is easy pickings. All you have to do is watch your energy levels and be wise about when you use it. Without the condition, other classes could seriously abuse them.

anyways, we seem to be generally on the same page with these buff ideas. So I guess. Which is always a good thing. Here's hoping Anet take something from it.

Riotgear · Oct 19, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You could Gale + AOE spike for silly amounts of damage that gets around both Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond if they were 1 second casts.

On that note, I'm wondering how much potential Searing Flames has as some sort of AOE spike. While it is rather expensive, funnelling several copies of it on to one target means they AND anyone near them is going to taste some serious pain, and then you can do it AGAIN two seconds later.

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However I still believe constant knockdown, -7 burning for 7 seconds is too much.

Burning for 7 seconds is effectively a Conjure Phantasm that's easier to remove. Whoopie. It's also an ELITE!

If you want a simple, balanced change to make them tremendously more useful, here it is: If the condition fails, DON'T CAUSE EXHAUSTION! Seeing an elite wind up being an exhausting Flare is absolutely pathetic.

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but I accept that this is the scissor-paper-stone relationship at work.

What other class matchups does this "relationship" apply to? I'm having a difficult time thinking of another matchup that's so obviously a near-automatic loss. A ranger doesn't NEED to be "specced out" for interrupts to screw an ele, they need to bring two skills: Savage shot and distracting shot. They also need to drink some coffee in the morning so they can time those to at fit within the 2-second cast times.

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SS can out-damage MoR by far. This however is dependant upon human or artificial stupidity.

You could say the same thing about Backfire, it's the same idea: You present them with two alternatives: Take a crapload of damage, or stop attacking completely. Either is extremely favorable to you.

Symbol · Oct 19, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

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Originally Posted by Frojack

Last I checked SS is also adjacent. What's your point? Also, MoR is 25 energy for a reason; Anet seemingly want it to be the sole preserve of elementalists (well, in terms of not using everything you have on 1 spell), and that burning is just very cool.

Did you miss the part about PvE? You can get mileage out of the AoE there, you can't in pretty much any form of organized PvP (and arguably unorganized too). Adjacent range AoE is just too small to count on, its a non factor when playing against people.

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You do if your under 50 hp. 'Instant relief' is what I wrote. 4 seconds of burning is around 50 damage. Remove just the hex and you still have to suffer upto around 50 damage.
Incidentally, if you want to cover MoR cheaply, a nice spell to use is Rust. While you have to contend with the 2 second cast-time, with just 4 or 5 (can't remember which) points in water it out-lasts it's recharge and gimps signets. Which is 15 seconds.

Recharge and cast time are unattractive making it a bad cover, and it's too overspecialized to deserve a slot on most bars on its own merits.

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SS does no damage if the hex is removed.
MoR does no damage if the Hex is removed. However it can deal upto around 50 damage if the condition remains.

SS does zero damage if the hexed target doesn't act.
MoR will keep on burning, no matter what they do.

SS can out-damage MoR by far. This however is dependant upon human or artificial stupidity.

Yes MoR is better in PvP against opponents who aren't retarded. That doesn't make it good, and making it an "adjacent" AoE will certainly not make it overpowered (again, against people who aren't retarded).

In PvE enemies will happily cast/attack through spiteful, which is why it blows everything else away in terms of damage.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

On that note, I'm wondering how much potential Searing Flames has as some sort of AOE spike. While it is rather expensive, funnelling several copies of it on to one target means they AND anyone near them is going to taste some serious pain, and then you can do it AGAIN two seconds later.

I made a GvG build utilizing 5 Me/E's with Searing Flames that was in a word "awesome". Can't wait to try it again. Freaking LOVE Searing Flames.

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Originally Posted by frojack

SS does zero damage if the hexed target doesn't act.
MoR will keep on burning, no matter what they do.

But if they don't act you're getting a rather desirable effect, wouldn't you say?